Lawsuit says particle collider could create black holes that would swallow Earth

Could the upcoming launch of the world's biggest atomic particle smasher – nicknamed the Big Bang Machine – touch off a cataclysmic event that dooms our planet?

That's the fear of some critics of the Large Hadron Collider in Switzerland, which is built to eventually slam protons together at an unprecedented peak energy of 14 trillion electron volts – nearing levels scientists believe were reached in the first microseconds after the "big bang."

The critics have filed a lawsuit against the U.S. government and the European Organization for Nuclear Research in Geneva, known as CERN, as scientists prepare to bring the collider online in July.

Co-plaintiffs Walter Wagner and Luis Sancho fear that when the collider reaches full power, it could create black holes or strangelets that would grow and eventually consume the Earth.

A black hole is a region of space so dense that light cannot escape its gravitational pull. Scientists have not proved the existence of strangelets, a hypothetical cosmological object containing an exotic form of matter.

Physicists at CERN and similar research facilities dismiss the doomsday claim as nonsense. But Wagner, a former nuclear safety officer who says he's studied physics for more than 30 years, wants the project shelved for four months to allow time for further safety reviews.

Fermilab in Illinois, which has the lead U.S. role in the Large Hadron Collider, also is a defendant in the suit, along with the U.S. Department of Energy and the National Science Foundation, according to MSNBC.

The Justice Department says it will not comment on the case before it files a response next month.

Federal attorneys are not expected to focus on the black hole question. They have successfully handled previous lawsuits by Wagner by narrowing their defense to issues such as claims the government and government-funded scientists have complied with environmental guidelines.

Scientists at CERN hope to see the first low-power proton collisions later this summer or in the fall. The collider will not reach full power – the big bang energies – until next year. By that time the Justice Department hopes the legal issues will be resolved.

Instant car melter

Fermilab currently has the world's largest collider, with a circumference of about four miles. But the new particle accelerator, buried an average of 100 meters below the border between France and Switzerland, is 17 miles around and will have seven times the energy of Fermilab's Tevatron accelerator.

The particle smashers, used to study the nuclei of atoms, take two beams of protons and smash them together after reaching extremely high energies. Scientists hope, in the process, to discover new types of smaller particles, known as quarks.

The beam of energy produced by the Swiss collider will be powerful enough to melt a small car almost instantly.

Wagner insisted safety reports he has seen so far do not rule out his black-hole scenario.

"For all I know, they will come up with some other novel argument that proves this can't happen," he said, according to MSNBC. "We want to see an argument that absolutely proves it ... because otherwise it ends up being [a statement that] 'we have no way of calculating. ' And that, to me, is a scary proposition. "

But theoretical physicist Michio Kaku, author of "Physics of the Impossible," said in a February MSNBC interview he isn't worried.

"I'm going to sleep well when that machine is turned on, because I know that cosmic rays have more energy than the Large Hadron Collider, and you don't see black holes from outer space," he said. "These are microscopic in size, and they don't last long."

Wagner further explained his concerns to Vancouver, B.C.'s Straight.com

"A micro black hole would simply bounce around, hitting other atoms and absorbing them into itself," he said, then, over a period of months or years the reaction would eventually grow to swallow the Earth.

Wagner said a strangelet is potentially more stable than existing matter. Therefore, he said, if one were created inside the collider, it would convert any matter it touched into a part of itself.

"The larger atom would eventually convert all of the Earth into a large strange atom," Wagner told Straight.com

Wagner's complaint for a temporary restraining order to halt the project reads in part:

"There is no question that should defendants inadvertently create a dangerous form of matter … or otherwise create unsafe conditions of physics, then the environmental impact would be both local and national in scope, and quite deadly to everyone."

A Canadian scientist who works on the project, Dugan O'Neil of Simon Fraser Universityin British Columbia, admitted to Straight.com that it's impossible to completely rule out some "very strange things" resulting from the new mega-collider. He, nevertheless, is not too concerned.

"It would be fascinating if those theories were right," O'Neil, said, somewhat in jest. "But the probability that they're right is exceedingly small."

O'Neil argued "there's no evidence that microscopic black holes exist; there's no evidence that strangelets exist."

Missing the creator for the particles?

John Conway, a University of California at Davis professor of physics and collaborator on the project, calls the collider "the greatest engineering feat of all mankind."

"It took the combined resources of nearly all of the countries in the world and thousand and thousands of scientists," he told the California Aggie, his school's newspaper. "People started designing this in the early 1990s and only now is it reaching completion."

A Straight.com reader, however, conveyed a different perspective on the project in a letter to the editor.

Michael Hey said it's reassuring to know there's only a small chance the collider will suck the Earth into a minature black hole, but there is a "more realistic peril."

"Consider the possibility that this research represents an intellectual dead end," he said. "Unfortunately, since so much money has been invested into a particular way of thinking about the world, it has become next to impossible for leading physicists to remain truly open-minded about what the universe is really telling us."

Hey reasoned that instead of expending more and more energy to "divide space," wouldn't it "make more sense to abandon the search for a fundamental particle in favor of a fundamental pattern of creation?"

"The Large Hadron Collider represents a monumental technological achievement, " he allowed. "Unfortunately, this leaves ordinary people mystified and confused, stuck with the pervasive (and, to my mind, mistaken) impression that physics can only be understood by physicists."

Mahathir Warns - Malaysiakini

Dr M warns of unrest amid political turmoil

He warns of unrest in multi-racial Malaysia, and Badawi is not pulling his weight. I think this is only in his imagination. His is a personnel vendetta against Badawi, his nemesis, and this is confined to UMNO, his supporters and those of Badawi. These two teams are slugging it out and I don’t see the people taking sides in this battle neither wanting to see races fighting one another. To be honest when you compare his rule and of Badawi, now one can see openness in dealing with issues and trying to find solutions to problems that abundant in a multi-racial society. This race card politics is slowly changing as people try to understand one another.

He says people are demanding things perceiving a weak Government. This is misleading. Contrary to his believe, the people are aware of what is happening in the Government. Whatever demands that are made are for good governance. Corruption, transparency, fairness, responsibility are not based on race alone. It covers the whole spectrum of society, and by doing so it is good for the people as a whole.

He further adds, extremists among different communities are out to create unfair demands. Is asking the Government being fair the work of extremists. I don’t think so.

Polarisation does not arise from religion. Polarisation is evident when one section of the community, irrespective of religion is treated differently, then differences are noticed. If every Malay has benefited from the New Economic Policy, good, it has done its job, but if this policy is for a selected few politicians, there is the privileged and the underprivileged, and this is polarisation. This is not so because of different religions.

Basically some of the issues raised by him, goes back to the time of 22 years he ruled the country. The excesses during his reign show results now and Badawi has got the inevitable task to put matters right. He is not going to surrender his Premiership just because Mahathir wants him to. In his exuberance and enthusiasm to make Najib the Prime Minister, does he forget that Badawi is a elected leader and his wishes that he should go is at the expense of the people who voted him. Badawi may not be a flamboyant leader like he was, but then if the people or the party does not want him, there must be a more democratic way to get him out and bring in someone new. Just because Mahathir does not want him, it becomes dictatorial to ask him to step down, and therefore a democratic procedure must be adopted. Mahathir’s rebellion is so far unsuccessful, not many UMNO members agree with his move and there have been no noticeable numbers resigning from UMNO. He should take the cue and keep quiet. Any further irritation, or criticism may eventually be beyond the patience of Badawi, and he may have to do the needful, to shut up Mahathir. It is country verses personal vendetta.

Anwar says it again…

Latest from the men on the Ground : At the launching of Lubok Antu Division attended by over 2500 people (estimated by reliable source) Datuk Seri Anwar Ibrahim said that he was very pleased that the Dayaks are now throwing their full support to PKR and this is an indication that PKR and Pakatan Rakyat will provide a strong challenge to wrestle some “Dayak majority” seats in the State elections expected in 2011.

Press Conference at 6pm: There will be crossovers and Anwar Ibrahim told the press/media to just be patient and expect it in the next few days.

 Excerpts from Tony Tien Malaysiakini…

Anwar Ibrahim says it again. Pakatan Rakyat has the numbers to take control of the federal government from the Barisan Nasional. Addressing a PKR dinner in Kuching last night, the Pakatan de facto leader said many things were happening which made many Barisan MPs unhappy but they dared not speak out in Parliament.The Barisan MPs could speak out if they join Pakatan, he added. Later he made his way to……

Kampung Gita Ceramah-Our Report

A huge crowd of more than 5000 turned up at a “Meet the People Session” at Kampung Gita where Datuk Seri Anwar Ibrahim the de facto leader of Parti Keadilan Rakyat (PKR)  spoke last night in the Malay majority areas encircling the Sarawak State seats of Tupong(N6), Semariang(N7) and Satok(N8). These 3 areas are represented by 3 PBB incumbents namely Dato Haji Abang Johari Tun Abang Haji Openg (State Housing Minister-Satok), Datuk Haji Daud Abdul Rahman (Assistant Minister in the Chief Minister’s Office-Tupong) and YB Sahrifah Hasidah bte Sayeed Aman (ADUN Semariang).

According to a PBB member a lot of people were curious and were there to pick up on anything that is new on “Where and What?”  Dato Seri Anwars Keadilan can offer to the Malays in these constituencies.  A strong statement which Anwar focus is on the General Economics for the Rakyat  ”Should we form the government we will bring down the oil prices? Malaysia produces enough and why should we buy from outside”. Our economy will be able to sustain the outside market forces which has hit hard on the wage earners.

Will the Voters in the Malay Majority areas buy that? I was told once by the Housing Minister that his voters in his area(10835) are more concerned about market forces affecting their daily lives than development promises. The Minister said at one ceramah a voter even asked him about the “Stock Exchange.”

Goes to show that we live in an era where voters in our areas know what they want. PBB and Parti Keadilan you will have to “Work Hard” to win these seats come 2011…..

WE HAVE THE NUMBERS SAYS ANWAR AGAIN - malaysiakini

WE HAVE THE NUMBERS SAYS ANWAR AGAIN - malaysiakini

Friday, May 23, 2008 at 11:56 PM Posted by jatt

Anwar Ibrahim says it again. Pakatan Rakyat has the numbers to take control of the federal government from the Barisan Nasional.

Addressing a PKR dinner in Kuching last night, the Pakatan de facto leader said many things were happening which made many Barisan MPs unhappy but they dared not speak out in Parliament.

The Barisan MPs could speak out if they join Pakatan, he added.

The former DPM said under the BN's long rule, a lot of things were going wrong which had put Malaysia way behind many other countries, such as Singapore and even Indonesia and Thailand , in terms of the economy, except for the corruption index which was going up.

The 'political tsunami' following the March 8 general election was the beginning of change necessary to make this country great once again, he said.

Clearly trying to erase any doubts about his claims, Anwar reiterated that Pakatan would topple the BN and form the federal government as “we already have the numbers but the timing for the change will come at the appropriate time”.

Pakatan Rakyat, a loose coalition comprising PKR, DAP and PAS, are in control of five states (Penang, Kedak, Perak, Selangor and Kelantan) and the Federal Territory of Kuala Lumpur. In the March 8 polls, Pakatan won 82 parliamentary seats against the BN's 140 seats, denying the latter of a two-third majority.

Figures from Jeffrey

But the current leadership crisis in Umno and the continuing demands especially by component parties in Sabah are threatening to chip away the ruling coalition's majority, and it is the frustrated Barisan MPs from Peninsular Malaysia, Sabah and Sarawak that are now the targets of Pakatan.

As Anwar repeated his ‘number’ claim, one of his party’s veeps came out with some 'figures', as if to lend credence to the claim.

Dr Jeffrey Kitingan told Malaysiakini last night the numbers come from Sabah, Sarawak and Peninsular Malaysia, almost equal in number for each of them.

According to Jeffrey who is also Sabah PKR deputy chief, the first batch of Barisan MPs to join Pakatan will take place either at the end of May or early next month.

This would be followed by those in the peninsula, he said, adding that Sarawak MPs would be the last to follow suit.

Anwar had earlier said that when forming the government, political stability was important just as immediate attention must be paid to the economy.

He repeated pledges to increase oil/gas revenue for Sarawak, Sabah and Terengganu from the present 5% to 20% should Pakatan form the government at the centre as well as reduce oil prices, saying this was possible because Malaysia, unlike Singapore and Thailand, is an oil exporting country, like the oil-producing and exporting Middle East countries where petrol prices for the local consumer market are low.

“You cannot say our petrol prices are lower than Singapore or Thailand and compare it. You should compare with the oil producing and exporting countries,” he added.

Anwar said under the BN, the country has lost its sense of direction, foreign direct investments are declining and the state of the economy is a big worry.

The former DPM said he would not like to make promises he could not keep, adding that should Pakatan take over, he would use all his overseas contacts with countries in China, the Middle East, Europe and the US to bring in foreign direct investments and to make Malaysia great again.

Mahathir Mohamad accused of judicial corruption

The findings of a Royal Commission into judicial corruption are about to be made public in Malaysia and the Cabinet has pre-empted the findings recomending investigations against six officials, including Dr Mahathir.

Presenter: Bill Bainbridge 
Speakers: Karpal Singh, Lawyer and MP for the opposition Democratic Action Party; Khoo Kay Peng, political commentator; Ambiga Sreenevasan, President Malaysia's Bar Council.

BAINBRIDGE: Mahathir Mohamad is becoming increasingly frustrated. The man who ruled Malaysia for 22 years has quit the party he once lead after spending most of the past few years at bitter odds with his chosen successor. Now, after being a party member since UMNO's inception in 1946, Dr Mahathir is calling on other members to quit and to join the opposition. 

The last straw may well have been the Malaysian cabinet's decision on Friday to order an investigation into its former leader over a judicial scandal.

A Royal Commission into the scandal has been probing allegations of dubious appointments of judges while Dr Mahathir was in power. With its findings set to be made public the government has ordered its chief prosecutor to investigate six people, including Dr Mahathir and two top judges, for possible criminal offences.

Opposition MP Karpal Singh says the Royal Commission's findings are being used by the current Prime Minister Abdullah Badawi to try to neutralize the constant criticism from his predecessor.

SINGH: It's designed for that purpose and rightly so because a lot of things were in fact swept under the carpet during Dr Mahathir's time. Instead the then Attorney General had to close all the files on what is now becoming quite apparent, so there's no doubt about it, I think they have been at each other's throats for quite some time now. I'm sure the present Prime Minister has got his own agenda. 

BAINBRIDGE: Dr Mahathir has stepped up his campaign against his successor since UMNO suffered disastrous losses in the election six weeks ago, almost costing them government. 

While he has tried to use his influence to oust Abdullah Badawi, political commentator Khoo Kay Peng says he may still command respect but he no longer has the authority to act as kingmaker within the party.

PENG: The party's leadership is still quite reluctant to take any form of action against Mahathir. One of the reasons is because I think Mahathir is held in high regard within the party. He has influence definitely but not necessarily people will listen to his so-called suggestions and directives. And one of the directives that is definitely not followed up by a great number of leaders in UMNO is to topple Abdullah Badawi.

BAINBRIDGE: When the Royal Commision's findings were leaked to a government aligned newspaper last week it was seen by some as a measure designed to embarass the former PM.

But Malaysian Bar Council President, Ambiga Sreenevasan, disagrees.

SREENEVASAN: The leaking of the report to the press to me actually it is not a mystery issue because it's going to be made public anyway and don't forget we have been calling for it to be made public. A lot of the members of the public and a lot of organisations have been calling for it to be made public. So I would disagree that it's being politicised.

BAINBRIDGE: And she says the cabinet really had no choice but to order an investigation.

SREENEVASAN: The cabinet position is really based on what the royal commission has said and quite frankly I don't think the public would have expected anything less than that in relation to the issue of investigation and prosecution. Obviously sufficient evidence has to be found where it is lacking. In some instances the commission has said there is sufficient evidence, in other instances they have said it should be investigated.

BAINBRIDGE: Dr Mahathir responded with typical bravado saying he would welcome an opportunity to go to court and threatening to reveal a great deal more about Malaysia's judiciary.

For his part Karpal Singh says the royal commission's findings are only the first step. 

SINGH: The royal commission has only made recommendations, that doesn't take us very far. It is the directive to the Attorney General which will bear fruit, or rather the Attorney General taking an active or rather ordering an active investigation which will ultimately reveal the truth. And that is what we will be pushing for in parliament.

Dr Mahathir interviewed in Hardtalk

Stephen Sackur Introduction:
Last month marked a watershed in the politics of Malaysia . The ruling national front recorded its worst election results in five decades. It's still in power but seriously weakened. My guest today personifies the power of the ruling party for 22 years. He was Malaysia 's PM and one of the most outspoken leaders in the Muslim world. His critics called him a racist and a dictator. Has retirement mellowed Mahathir Mohamed?

Stephen Sackur: Dr Mohamad welcome to Hardtalk. Let's start with that election result last month, has it marked the beginning of the end for Malaysia 's ruling party?

Mahathir Mohamad: Not necessarily, unless no action is taken, of course it may result in that. But if proper action is taken, including of course the present Prime Minister leaving his seat of power, it may be possible to bring back the Barisan Nasional Front in order to become again a very strong ruling party.

Stephen Sackur: You're saying that PM Abdullah Badawi has to be kicked out for the ruling party to recover?

Mahathir Mohamad: Well not so strong as that. He can step down. I stepped down in my time. It's about time that he steps down because the result of the election shows clearly that many of the former followers, supporters of the Nasional Front had decided that they would work, vote for the Opposition even if they didn't like the Opposition. They voted for the Opposition to send a message to the present government.

Stephen Sackur: Prime Minister Abdullah says that you have been one of the curses that have brought him down, because you've been sniping from the sidelines for the last two or three years.

Mahathir Mohamad: That may be so. I don't see why I should not criticise wrongdoings by him.

Stephen Sackur: What wrongdoings?

Mahathir Mohamad: Well in the first place, the government promises to remove corruption and things like that, but the government is found to be corrupt.

Stephen Sackur: You are tearing your own party apart though, that is the problem. And that is what many people inside your party believe.

Mahathir Mohamad: Well sometimes it may be necessary. I told people that I'm a doctor. If I find one leg becoming gangrenous I remove it.

Stephen Sackur: Now he has said Prime Minister Abdullah, that he will go eventually, but is your message to him that he has no time, he must go now?

Mahathir Mohamad: He must go now, because he will take time to revive the party for the next election.

Stephen Sackur: Isn't the truth of what we see in Malaysia today that the real discontent isn't so much with Prime Minister Abdullah, it is with the system and the ideology that you bequeathed to your country?

Mahathir Mohamad: Well the system and the ideology have been there for the last 50 years. It's worked very well we had always won elections, people always supported us and the country has done very well during that 50 years with that system.

Stephen Sackur : But the indications are and the opposition succeeded by saying to the public, we no longer want this racially defined system inside Malaysia . And it was the racial defined system that was the platform upon which you succeeded in running Malaysia for 22 years.

Mahathir Mohamad: I think that's wishful thinking on the part of foreign critics. But the fact is that this election result was due to disaffection on the part of the ruling party's supporters, with the present leadership.

Stephen Sackur : Well let me just quote you the words of the new head of Penang State and let's not forget that these results saw five very big and wealthy states go to the Opposition. The new head of Penang State Mr Lim Guan Eng, he says 'we want a new state administration that is free from corruption and cronyism, we are here to build a Penang State for all.' You didn't build a  Malaysia for all did you?

Mahathir Mohamad: I did. If you look at Malaysia today. Everybody is enjoying, has enjoyed, a very good life. They have become very prosperous. Malaysia was one of the fastest growing countries in the world. If you look at the different races, you can find that they all benefited from that government. So it is of course, necessary for Opposition parties to make remarks like that.

Stephen Sackur : But they are not making it up are they? Let's look at your new economic policy which you pursued for so long. It favours ethnic Malays, in so many different ways, from public sector appointments to university places, to advantageous acquisition of stocks, discounts on housing, I don't know where to stop. There are so many different ways in which you ran an unequal system.

Mahathir Mohamad: No this was a policy which was initiated by my predecessors, it was necessary to...

Stephen Sackur : But you ran it for 22 years, you had ample opportunity to change it.

Mahathir Mohamad: Yes I had ample opportunity to implement in a way that will correct imbalances that existed in Malaysia since the British days. And unless these imbalances are corrected there's bound to be another race riot, as happened in 1969.

Stephen Sackur : But the point is that 80 thousand Indians for example, were on the streets protesting long and loud last November, because they are no longer prepared to live with the racial division that you set in the stone.

Mahathir Mohamad: Why now? Why not during my time? They were quite free to demonstrate. Many of the people who disagreed with me demonstrated. ..

Stephen Sackur : But many of the people who disagreed with you, I'm afraid ended up in prison.

Mahathir Mohamad: Who?

Stephen Sackur : Hundreds of them, read every Amnesty international and human rights watch report for the years in which you were in power..

Mahathir Mohamad: The western press, the problem is that you make up these stories and then you take this as the truth, it's not the truth. Tell me who are the hundreds of people who ended up in prison.

Stephen Sackur: I'll discuss human rights a little bit later. I just want before we get distracted from this question of racism in Malaysia, I just want to put to you this final point: Anwar Ibrahim says that he is going to push and of course he your long time friend who became, your political enemy, he is going to push for a colour blind Malaysia where affirmative action is open to all who need help.

Mahathir Mohamad: Well this opportunism for him, now that he is out of the government, he was in the government for a long time, he never made any complaints, he never did anything to.

Stephen Sackur : He certainly made a complaint when you locked him up. 

Mahathir Mohamad: Well that was not the reason why he was locked up, he was accused of sodomy, he was accused of abuse of power, he was tried in court, nine months and he was defended by nine lawyers and he was found guilty...

Stephen Sackur : Trumped up charges.. trumped up charges.. says not just Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International but I've been looking through the record, the Canadian government, the White House, the International Commission of Jurists, all of them expressed grave and deep concern with the way in which your judicial system treated Anwar Ibrahim.

Mahathir Mohamad: Yes you're free to say so but...

Stephen Sackur : I'm not saying it, I'm just quoting to you all the people who did say it.

Mahathir Mohamad: But what is the record of these countries? These people, these same countries arrested people without the law, and detained them in GuantanamoBayand even in Britainhere, you arrest people and detain them without any sanction by law.

Stephen Sackur : So does that make it okay that you did it for 22 years?

Mahathir Mohamad: We did it under the laws of the country, but it is not the way...

Stephen Sackur : You used the laws which went back to colonial times, the internal security act, emergency procedures, you feel satisfied to tell me that that was entirely legitimate?

Mahathir Mohamad: No we find that the situation in the country is very very fluid and it is very likely that there will be racial riots, unless we prevent precise people who are promoting racial hatred from talking about it.

Stephen Sackur : Put it this way, Dr Mahathir, you've had several years out of power now to consider your record and what you did, I wonder whether you are now ready to say that you regret what you did to Anwar Ibrahim?

Mahathir Mohamad: Why should I regret? He was arrested under the laws of the country, he was tried in the courts of the country and he was sentenced by the court. If he was not wrong, I don't think, no matter what you think about our judiciary, I don't think he would have been
sentenced to prison.

Stephen Sackur : It damaged your reputation though didn't it?

Mahathir Mohamad: Well that's something I have to accept.

Stephen Sackur : You may also find it comes back to haunt you? Anwar Ibrahim is now leading the opposition coalition. We are led to believe that there are certain MPs in the ruling party who may defect to him, in which case he could very soon be running the government. And he's made it plain that he wants to have you answer for all of the things you do while you were in power.

Mahathir Mohamad: Well he's welcome to do that if he becomes the Prime Minister of Malaysia, but if he wins over members of the ruling party to his side, it is the prime minister, the present leader who should be blamed, because he couldn't even get the loyalty of his own members.

Stephen Sackur : It wasn't the current prime minister who was in power when Anwar Ibrahim was savagely beaten during his time in detention?

Mahathir Mohamad: Savagely beaten? I know he was slapped and he had a black eye which was very useful for election purpose...

Stephen Sackur : Why you think he hit himself maybe?

Mahathir Mohamad: Well I don't know what happened..but the police the IGP admitted that he assaulted Anwar, but that wasn't me that was the IGP.

Stephen Sackur : But how do you respond, if Anwar comes to power and he as he said on this programme and elsewhere, that he wants a full and thorough public inquiry into all of your, Dr Mahathir's misdeeds, how will you respond to that?

Mahathir Mohamad: He is welcome to do so, but I hope that he finds people who are neutral, who are impartial, probably foreigners, because I don't trust the people that they put after people they don't like.

Stephen Sackur : Interesting that you say you don't trust people who are currently or maybe in charge of any inquiry, do you trust the integrity of the Malaysian judiciary?

Mahathir Mohamad: I do, at times I do but...

Stephen Sackur : is that because you appointed the judges?

Mahathir Mohamad: I didn't appoint the judges, the judges were recommended by the Chief Justice and my duty is to check whether he has any records or not and after that he is presented to the king who will then appoint the judge...

Stephen Sackur : Dr Mahathir, you know as well as I do, that the hottest political topic in Malaysia today, is the state of the judiciary, the integrity of the judiciary and that a video has been playing in Malaysiafor a long time now which shows a top lawyer talking to a top judge going back to 2001, in which the lawyer says to the judge 'believe me in the end all of the positions going all the way to the supreme court are fixed by the politicians' , i.e. by you who were the prime minister at the time Dr Mahathir?

Mahathir Mohamad: Did he say that? Did he mention my name?

Stephen Sackur : He didn't mention your name he said this will be fixed, this goes through the political system. You ran the political system.

Mahathir Mohamad: I'm not so sure about that. But the fact is that this man had his video taken because they intended to blackmail him. He happens to be my lawyer, defending me at this moment for libel against Anwar and this tape came from Anwar. Anwar had these things
recorded in order to blackmail the lawyer.

Stephen Sackur : But the point is the current government led by Prime Minister Abdullah who is nominally or despite what you have said on this programme, is of your party. Prime Minister Abdullah has now essentially apologised, he said both to the supreme court justice that you removed and to other judges that were suspended or removed during your time in power, he's said sorry to them. He's said that he wants to offer them monetary compensation

Mahathir Mohamad: Fine but it's a political move. Something a man who is very unpopular at the moment, wanting to show that he's going to do something right.

Stephen Sackur: And that Dr Mahathir is my point. The Malaysian people no longer want to live with the system you created. That's why Prime Minister Abdullah is essentially dismantling the system that you created.

Mahathir Mohamad: No no no he's not dismantling the system, he is making use of the system in a worse way. Nobody can say anything against him, he has newspapers which only reports about him and how great he is. And he was mislead by his own supporters, into believing
that if he holds the election now, this is one and half years before the end of the term, he would win, he would have a clean sweep.If you look at the records, he made statements that he would win the election, with zero for the Opposition.

Stephen Sackur: The more I listen to you talking about Prime Minister Abdullah, the more I wonder why did you choose him to be your successor?

Mahathir Mohamad: Well these people are very smart in hiding their true character. He was known as Mr Clean and I thought I would appoint a clean person to succeed me. Although he was not the one with the highest votes in my party. But I thought that he was older and I
appointed him thinking that he's not going to do anything very wrong. But this man gives priority to his family rather than to the country.

Stephen Sackur: So it was a fundamental lack of judgement on your part?

Mahathir Mohamad: Yes I'll admit that. But we all make mistakes. The British people voted in people like Blair, who told lies, so did the Americans. Lots of people make mistakes.

Stephen Sackur: We all make mistakes you say, was it also a mistake for you to define yourself so clearly, as anti-western and anti-democratic, in the sense that the West understands democracy?

Mahathir Mohamad: No that's the problem, I am not anti-Western, I am against the bad things that were done by the Western countries.

Stephen Sackur: You're not anti-western and yet in June 2003 before you left office, you said anglo-Saxon Europeans are essentially proponents and I'm quoting here: 'proponents of war, sodomy and genocide.'

Mahathir Mohamad: Which is true, you must admit.

Stephen Sackur: But you're not anti-western?

Mahathir Mohamad: I'm stating the fact. This is their character and I will continue to say so.

Stephen Sackur: So when you come here, you sit in the Hardtalk studio, in the heart of London , you regard yourself do you, as in one of the Headquarters of war, sodomy and genocide?

Mahathir Mohamad: Well I come here of course expecting to be lambasted by you, because that is the way you work.

Stephen Sackur: Well I'm not lambasting you at all. I'm trying to tease out whether you believe it was a mistake for you to use this sort of language. Because you clearly cut yourself off, from any sort of meaningful dialogue with the West when you use these words.

Mahathir Mohamad: Well the Europeans used to call us the lazy Malays, incompetent Malays, untrustworthy Malays, we couldn't say a thing about you. So when I was in a position to say what we think about you, and I did and you don't like it. When you said it to us you expect us
to like it. We didn't like it, but we had no way of making our voices heard.

Stephen Sackur: I am just wondering how you feel about democracy. Of course in the world since 9/11, the United Statesand the coalition of partners led by the United Kingdom, have talked a lot about spreading democracy, do you believe in democracy?

Mahathir Mohamad: If you look at the history of the west, they come up with all kinds of ideologies, they use it for sometime and then they found it defective and they dropped it and start on another. One day they are going to forget about democracy because in some countries
democracy actually ended up with anarchy. And there were practically no governments. It's not a system that can feed everybody. You must have a certain understanding of the limitations of democracy, in order to make it work.

Stephen Sackur: Is that why you were not a democrat, why you in the end did behave like a dictator?

Mahathir Mohamad: Well that is something that the West would like to say about me, I am a dictator.

Stephen Sackur: Well I'm just quoting your own words from 2002. You said it's good governance people need, you said, feudal kings even dictators have provided and can provide good governments.

Mahathir Mohamad: Well that's very true, that is very true. The great civilisations of the past did not have democracies. And yet they  became great. It's not necessary that the system will work for everybody. But if we have a bad leader, even the democratic system will fail. We must remember that it is a democratic country which dropped atomic bombs, killing 200 thousand people.

Stephen Sackur: How do you think the Malaysian public will respond to you saying, look you know what democracy isn't the best system and in fact dictatorship can often work better.

Mahathir Mohamad: I went through five elections and I won all the elections with a majority...

Stephen Sackur: Without a free press, locking up many of your opponents.

Mahathir Mohamad: There you go again about locking up many of my opponents, who are they?

Stephen Sackur: I don't know how many times I have to tell you, that I've studied the human rights watch reports, the Amnesty International reports, studies from the state department, from the Canadian government.

Mahathir Mohamad: These are biased reports, the first thing I did on becoming the prime minister in 1981, was to release political prisoners who were detained by my predecessors, 22 or them, including many members of the Opposition.

Stephen Sackur: Under the 1984 Press law which required newspapers to get a new licence every single year. It made it very easy for you to quieten them down, didn't it?

Mahathir Mohamad: No it has always been there, the press law has been there...I didn't do that...but the fact is that we have a multi-racial country and if we are not careful, there will be racial flare-ups. And you look at most of the countries with multi-racial population, they are never peaceful, even Northern Ireland , it took you such a long to stop the war in Northern Ireland .

Stephen Sackur: Talking of peace, you did worry about the stability of your country, didn't you? That's why you were very strong, very tough with Islamist extremism inside Malaysia .

Mahathir Mohamad: Yes it is necessary.

Stephen Sackur: Well I just wonder in that case then why just before you left office, in October 2003, why did you tell the Islamic Summit Conference that and I'm quoting again a very famous speech, it's a little bit long but '1.3 billion Muslims cannot be defeated by a few million Jews,' you said. 'We're actually very strong. The Europeans killed six million Jews out of 12 million but today Jews rule this world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them.' You went on to say: 'But the Jews have become arrogant. And arrogant people like angry people will make mistakes and there may be a window of opportunity for us.'

Mahathir Mohamad: I'm stating facts, I am willing to say that again and again that this is what has happened.

Stephen Sackur: Anti-Semitic and racist that was called by many governments and people around the world.

Mahathir Mohamad: Anti-Semitism is created by the Jews themselves. We cannot say anything. In fact journalists have been arrested for saying something against the holocaust and jailed for three years. Where is the freedom of press?

Stephen Sackur: So those words I quoted in your view, are not anti-Semitic?

Mahathir Mohamad: No they are not anti-Semitic? I am just quoting facts. The fact is that the United Statesobeys what Israelwants it to do.

Stephen Sackur: You call them facts, let's leave that aside for the moment. I am trying to understand your logic. Here you are a man who says that your own country is potentially destabilised by Islamic extremism and then you go out in an Islamic Conference and you use
words which could have been used by Osama bin Laden.

Mahathir Mohamad: There's no contradiction, no contradiction at all. I don't want Islamic terrorism any more than I want Jewish attacks against Israel , or American bombs on Baghdad . It is not incompatible.

Stephen Sackur: Do you feel confident that people still listen to your message?

Mahathir Mohamad: I wouldn't be able to say. Why should people worry about me?

Stephen Sackur: In Malaysiapeople say, and I'm talking about the Prime Minister, the leader of the Opposition: it's time for you to be quiet.

Mahathir Mohamad: Why should I be quiet? You mean to say when they are doing something wrong, to my country and I should not say anything? I would be irresponsible if I were to do that.

Stephen Sackur: Dr Mahathir Mohamad thank you very much for being on Hardtalk.

Mahathir Mohamad: You're welcome.